Forum Forum
Listed below is some email discussion of issues related to the trails around North Rim.
If you would like to join this discussion, click here to email your contribution to nrlvtc@tridog.com.
(It may take a couple days for it to show up on this page.)
Index:
from: Dan Selig, to: Brent Wheeler, date: 15 Oct 1997
webmaster's response to Dan Selig
from: Brent Wheeler, to: Dan Selig, date: 16 Oct 1997
from: Gerry Stahl, to: Brent Wheeler, date: 19 Oct 1997
from: Brent Wheeler, to: Gerry Stahl, date: 20 Oct 1997
from: Roger Raihala, to: Brent Wheeler, date: 22 Oct 1997
from: Brent Wheeler, to: Andy Poltorak, date: 23 Oct 1997
from: James W Milstein, to: NRLVTC, date: 15 Nov 1997
webmaster's response to James Milstein
from NRLVTC, to Dave Kuntz, date: 25 Nov 1997
from NRLVTC, to Jim Crain, date: 26 Nov 1997
Webmaster's note: The following emails may contain inaccuracies and do not necessarily represent the position of the NRLVTC. They are included in their unedited form for purposes of public documentation.
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997
From: Dan Selig <selig@csn.net>
To: Brent Wheeler <wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us>
Brent,
I want to thank you, your co-workers, and Dan from the County for coming to our meeting last night. I imagine it came as quite a shock that after all the newspaper articles and other postings you made, that the members of our community were surprised by your plan.
I guess enough of us don't get the Camera. The reason most of us were surprised was that the developer did not disclose anything to us. I recognize that you are not responsible for the developer but all the same this incident might suggest to you that in similar circumstances, you understand the developer's plan for informing his customers.
In my case, I was mislead. The developer's salesperson clearly told me that I own the land up to the rancher's fence. It wasn't until this issue was brought to my attention that I did the necessary research to understand my property bounderies.
The unspoken concern is that of privacy. All of our homes have big picture windows that are exposed to the back. The idea of strangers walking by and looking into our homes is quite unnerving. The next time you walk around in your home, please think about how it would be if passers by could look in.
The point about burglary was not made clear. It is not that someone would walk two miles to burglarize a home, it is that he can see inside the home and decide if he wants to hit it. He would then burglarize the home at a different time.
Again, thank you for listening to our concerns.
Response to Dan Selig:
This was a private message from Dan expressing his personal feelings and does not represent the position of NRLVTC, of which Dan is an active member. While Dan honestly thought his property went all the way back to the ranch behind Pebble Beach Drive, many of us did know that there was an occassionally used equestrian easement back there. It is our understanding that no one including the developer, the realtors or the builders thought there was a possibility of a multi-use open space trail running back there. Dan's privacy concerns are a result of the fact that all the houses along the south side of Pebble Beach were designed to be very open to the south to take advantage of the vistas for which we paid a substantial premium.
The position of NRLVTC is not based on the personal concerns that Dan expressed, but on the argument that a designated multi-use trail behind North Rim houses would be unsafe for trail users, inappropriate for an open space trail and illegally located for the reasons outlined in our letter to the editors Nov 28 of the Daily Camera. The confusion of personal feelings that some of us may hold with the position of our organization has led to misunderstandings, such as the attrribution of an "anti-trail" position to our effort to support well-conceived open space trails and public access to the open space (see certain remarks in the Daily Camera article on November 4 as well as the article in the Boulder Planet on November 12 and subsequent letters to the Camera editors on November 17 and November 18 and to the Planet on November 27).
-- NRLVTC
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997
From: Brent Wheeler <wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us>
To: Dan Selig <selig@csn.net>
Subject: North Rim Trail
Thanks for your input! It is unfortunate that some people at the meeting felt they did not have an opportunity to be involved in this planning effort. The Open Space Department and myself feel public involvement is critical to the management of these lands. Although we tried to involve your neighborhood and the citizens of the Boulder area, some people still felt "left out" and that is why we organized the meeting.
As you implied in your e-mail, it is not the City or the County's responsibility to inform potential landowners of existing adjacent land uses. It is ultimately the potential landowner's responsibility to determine what land uses surround them and whether they are willing to live with them. It is unfortunate, that in your case you were misled, but the Open Space Departments have little control over developers once the area is subdivided. That would be a matter you would have to discuss with the County Land Use Department or a legal advisor.
The area in question was deeded to Boulder County for non-vehicular access in 1991. The Open Space Department was operating on the premise that this particular trail corridor already existed and was acceptable to adjacent landowners. I believe I worked with Jill Selig (your wife?) on a volunteer project in 1994. During that project, we cleaned up trash and discussed trails. Trails discussed included the trail around the south and east sides of the neighborhood and the connection to BoulderValley Ranch trails.
In this recent trail proposal, we were simply trying to connect to an existing trail corridor that would provide access for the neighborhood and the general public. The purpose of this trail corridor (south and east of your neighborhood) was to provide access for your neighborhood and minimize the neighborhood's impact to adjacent natural areas, not necessarily to provide a high quality recreational experience.
I can understand your concerns for privacy, but here again, we assumed that this type of land use was known to you or others when they purchased their property. I actually live directly behind a trail and paid a lot premium to do so. I have curtains and am planning landscaping in areas where I want to ensure my privacy. As I have recently seen and studies verify, property values actually increase when proximity to recreational amenities (such as trails) are close by.
I can understand your initial reaction to increased visibility to the inside ofyour home. I do not have hard data on criminals and their recreational pursuits, but I would doubt there are any studies that support the idea that "would be burglars" use trails to identify their targets. In my experience (over ten years direct involvement in law enforcement), increased visibility usually decreases crime and vandalism.
Sorry for the length of this message, but as you can probably tell I have a lot invested in this project and I was not particularly pleased with the way the meeting went. Unfortunately the meeting did not allow for open communication by all interested parties. We will continue to work with the Community Mediation staff to improve our public involvement processes and work towards creating a more open and non-threatening meeting environment in the future. Thanks for your comments and bearing with me on this e-mail. I will keep the appropriate homeowner contacts posted on how we are going to proceed. Feel free to contact me if you need further information.
Sincerely, Brent Wheeler 441-4142
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997
From: Gerry Stahl <Gerry.Stahl@colorado.edu>
To: Brent Wheeler <wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us>
Subject: Some misunderstandings about the North Rim Trail corridor
Brent Wheeler
Project Manager
I think it became clear in last Tuesday's meeting that there were some misunderstandings on both your side and mine about the current usage and status of designated and undesignated trails in the vicinity of Pebble Beach Drive in North Rim.
Like all of my neighbors who are adjacent to the North Rim Trail corridor on the south boundary of North Rim, I thought this corridor existed as a utility access corridor for access to the ditch and sewer systems behind our houses. The corridor has been so overgrown for a couple of years that it is virtually unpassable for joggers and hikers. Therefore, until you opened the fence at the west end, there was no regular use of this corridor. Residents of Pebble Beach used the path at the east end of Pebble Beach Drive to access the Open Space trail system.
In addition to implying that North Rim residents used the corridor as a popular access route, you also referred to two or three subdivision outlots as extensions for Lake Valley joggers to use the corridor as well. In fact, a trail around Loukonen Lake was briefly considered by the Joint Commons Committee of the two subdivisions but the idea was quickly rejected. Thus, there is no connection from Lake Valley to the west end of Pebble Beach. The small outlot near the west end of Pebble Beach that connects to the corridor is a drainage area and was never used as open space access prior to your opening the fence.
In summary, you have misunderstood the established usage patterns: the local residents have never considered the corridor along the south of our homes a useful access route.
Now for my misunderstanding. As I said, I thought the corridor existed as a utility access corridor for access to the ditch and sewer systems. We now know that the corridor was deeded in 1991 as a non-motorized access. At what point did it become designated as an Open Space Trail? Your plan, your maps and your presentation presume that it is an established Open Space Trail. Is it so designated and if so, when and how did this take place? I would appreciate some insight into my misunderstanding on this point.
Sincerely, Gerry Stahl
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997
From: Brent Wheeler wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us
Subject: Some misunderstandings about the North Rim Trail corridor
It is unfortunate that you and other residents in your area did not know about this trail corridor, but it is not the City or the County's responsibility to inform potential landowners of existing adjacent land uses. It is ultimately the potential landowner's responsibility to determine what land uses surround them and whether they are willing to live with them.
The area in question was deeded to Boulder County for non-vehicular access in 1991(Outlot G in North Rim filing #2). This outlot became public land at that point and was to be used for trail purposes.
The City of Boulder Open Space Department held a meeting in 1994 to discuss trails in your neighborhood and conduct a volunteer project. During that project, we discussed trails around the south and east sides of the neighborhood and how they could connect to trails around Boulder Valley Ranch. At that meeting, it was pointed out to me (by residents of your neighborhood) that two outlots existed along the south end of Lake Valley and North Rim (Outlot F and M of North Rim filing #2).
The people who attended the project agreed that these outlots could provide access to the County trail corridor and connections to Boulder Valley Ranch. The western outlot (Outlot J) could provide access for residents on the west end of Pebble Beach Drive and others to the north (residents along Spy Glass Lane, not Lake Valley Estates). The eastern outlot (Outlot M of North Rim filing #2) could provide access for residents on the east end of Pebble Beach Drive and residents to the north. The continuation of Outlot G along the east side of North Rim would provide access for eastern residents and other visitors (from other areas north of North Rim).
Shortly after that meeting we built the North Rim Trail. This trail connects the County trail corridor to the Sage Trail and other trails around Boulder Valley Ranch. Although the majority of use comes from the east end, some residents do use the western outlot and the western portion of the County trail corridor.
In this recent trail proposal, we were simply trying to connect to an existing trail corridor that would provide access for the neighborhood and the general public. The purpose of this trail corridor (south and east of your neighborhood) was to provide access for your neighborhood and to minimize the neighborhood's impact to adjacent natural areas, not necessarily to provide a high quality recreational experience.
Unfortunately the meeting did not allow for open communication by all interested parties. There are a number of people (both at the meeting and afterwards) who have told me about their support of these trails. We will continue to work with the Community Mediation staff to improve our public involvement processes and work towards creating a more open and non-threatening meeting environment in the future. I will keep the appropriate homeowner contacts posted on how we are going to proceed. Feel free to contact me if you need further information.
Date: Oct 1997
From: Roger Raihala <roger@parascript.com>
To: Brent Wheeler wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us
Subject: Meeting last Tuesday (Oct 14) regarding open space trails around North Rim and The Ridge
I lived in Wonderland Hills (1985/1986) and the open space trails there were directly behind several homes (located at the end of Utica).This trail which runs north and south going from Wonderland Hills towardsLee Hill Rd was relocated further west in order to provide some separation from the homes. I believe that this a precedent and it is relevant to what the people of North Rim and The Ridge are requesting for relocating your proposed trail system.
Roger Raihala
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997
From: Brent Wheeler <wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us>
To: Andy Poltorak <CPoltorak@aol>
Subject: Update
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Here is the update: The Open Space Department feels that public involvement is critical to the management of these lands and we would like to thank all the residents who attended the meeting and have expressed their concerns. The issues and alternatives that were discussed at the neighborhood meeting and that have been expressed in subsequent e-mails and conversations will be further evaluated before any decisions are made. The trail projects around Lake Valley and North Rim involve applications with Boulder County Land Use and these applications have been withdrawn.
An open house will be held on December 10th, 1997 providing citizens an opportunity to further discuss these trail projects with City and County staffs and the Open Space Board of Trustees. Notices of the openhouse will be mailed to residents of Lake Valley and North Rim, citizens involved in the development of the North Boulder Valley Area Management Plan, posted at Open Space information boards in the area, and an ad will be placed in the Daily Camera. Members of the public will have an opportunity to informally discuss their concerns with staff and formally speak to members of the Board. The City and County staffs will review information from these meetings and return to the Open Space Board of Trustees sometime in early 1998 for their recommendation.
Please feel free to disseminate any or all of this information in your homeowner newsletters. We will send out notices in mid November and could probably use another set of the mailing labels. Thanks for help and feel free to call me if you have any questions.
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997
From: James W Milstein <Jim.Milstein@ATT.net>
Subject: The view from central Boulder
The North Rim/Lake Valley Trails Committee does not look good in its chosen issue. Quite apart from considerations of the substantive value of its suggestions about the trails in the neighborhood, the tone is that of spoiled citizens with an overblown notion of personal entitlement. Have you any idea how petulant your complaints about high volume traffic and loss of privacy sound? I think you occupy the low ground in the battle to gain public sympathy for your plight. A better strategy, if you'll permit me a suggestion, is simply to pay off the key officials involved. What would a good pay off be? Well, money is always nice, but I have an idea: The members of the committee draw straws; holder of the short straw donates own home to the key official to be paid off, thereby making that person a fellow stakeholder. What's more, if the transaction come to light, it would be seen by all as so noble and so self sacrificing a gesture of sincerity that the impropriety of the operation would be forgiven. Try it. It just might work.
Response to James Milstein
This is the worst example of intolerance and hate mail based on a complete lack of understanding and information. The press coverage of our effort by the Boulder Planet painted us as "anti-trail" and Mr. Milstein reacted out of stereotypical predjudice rather than trying to find out the facts. Bad enough that a reporter would write about our effort by taking passages from this web site out of context in order to stir up a controversial human interest story, without speaking to anyone in our organization. But then for a reader to flame at us with such venom on the basis of such reporting is a bit much. It is particularly ironic that Mr. Milstein writes from central Boulder, as though real estate land values there are not substantially higher than those in North Rim (partially as a result of Open Space purchases).
--NRLVTC
Date: Tues, 25 Nov 1997
From: Gerry Stahl <Gerry.Stahl@colorado.edu>
To: Dave Kuntz kuntzd@ci.boulder.co.us
Subject: an invitation to North Rim
Dear Dave Kuntz:
I would like to thank you for meeting with representatives of the NRLVTC on November 17th. I very much appreciated your frank and forthcoming manner in letting us know what the City's feelings and true concerns are about the trails in our vicinity and about our suggestions. That was exactly the kind of exchange that I had hoped we would have.
I would like to suggest taking this a step further by having you and Brent Wheeler come out and walk the trails with me. I have recently walked the trails with two members of the Board of Trustees and found it an extremely useful way to share ideas, to understand each other's perspectives and to move toward consensus on what should be done. Our own proposals have been significantly modified as a result of these discussions on the actual trails. Perhaps if we had an informal discussion while standing together and pointing out physical features, we could come to a good understanding and might well avoid unnecessary disagreements at the December 10th meeting of the Board of Trustees.
Please feel free to contact me by email or phone (492-3912) during working hours or by phone at home (444-2792). I can probably adjust my schedule to meet you on the trail whenever it is convenient for you.
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997
From: Gerry Stahl <Gerry.Stahl@colorado.edu>
To: Jim Crain crainj@ci.boulder.co.us
Subject: Follow-up to meeting on trails near North Rim
Cc: cbhpa@boco.co.gov, dswpa@boco.co.gov, kuntzd@ci.boulder.co.us, wheelerb@ci.boulder.co.us
Dear Mr. Crain:
On behalf of the North Rim/Lake Valley Trails Committee, I would like to thank you, Carolyn Holmberg, Dan Wolfred and Dave Kuntz for meeting with us on November 17. Specifically, I appreciate your openness in outlining the feelings of City and County Open Space staff concerning the trail plans we discussed and concerning the proposals that we made for alternative alignments. In requesting this meeting we had hoped to get such a response so that we could better understand the position of the City and County. I am hopeful that as a result of the meeting we can work toward a solution that meets everyone's real needs.
You made it clear that a rule such as "no trails within 100 meters of residential properties" is unacceptable to your organization. First, let me reiterate that this was never intended as a general rule, but was only meant to apply to the trails around North Rim, where we believe there are superior alternatives readily available. Nevertheless, we have modified the proposal we will present on December 10 to take into account your concern as well as the concern of Dave and others with habitat fragmentation that could possibly result from our original trail alternatives. We now ask only that the trails be kept far enough away from houses to leave a buffer that will prevent most undesirable interactions between trail users on bikes or horses and neighborhood children or pets in backyards.
Carolyn made it clear that the County takes seriously its ownership of the 15 foot corridor originally known as Outlot G of the North Rim plat. She stressed that the County maintains that there has long been an existing social trail going along that corridor on the east and south borders of North Rim, prior to the opening of the fence at the southwest corner last June. Both you and she indicated that you believed there had always been an intention to use Outlot G as a multi-use trail. As a result of this discussion we realized that we had been operating with a different set of assumptions concerning Outlot G than City and County staff, and we are now trying to understand your assumptions and to take them into account.
I believe it was both you and Dave who indicated willingness to re-open the gates for a trail from the southern end of the proposed East Beech Trail improvements south to Sage Trail or to the Boulder Valley Ranch Trailhead. We greet this willingness as a major step toward a solution. Of course, we would also like to see improvements (at least a little bridge over the wetlands) to this stretch of the East Beech Trail included when you resubmit your plans for the northern section.
I have sent email to Dave Kuntz and Brent Wheeler inviting them to walk the trail options with me. This might allow us to make further progress toward mutual agreement prior to December 10.
Once more, I would like to thank you for hosting an informative and productive meeting.
Sincerely yours,
Gerry Stahl
cc: Carolyn Holmberg, Dan Wolfred, Dave Kuntz, Brent Wheeler
******************************************************
* Gerry Stahl
* President
* North Rim / Lake Valley Trails Committee
* 3900 Pebble Beach Dr.
* Niwot, CO 80503
* (303) 444-2792
* NRLVTC@tridog.com
* http://www.tridog.com/nrlvtc
*****************************************************
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